Form: 97 Data
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:04:16 +0000
From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Mantell's F-51 Was Not Oxygen-Equipped
Cat: 11

For heavens sakes, guys! I thought my memory problems were bad, but you all make me feel better. The whole business about oxygen in the Mantell case has been on the record all along. A quick look at the two-volume edition of Jerry Clark's Encyclopedia found this:

: "Mantell's right wingman, 1st Lt. Albert Clements, put on his oxygen mask. Already the air was getiing dangerously thin [at 16,000 feet] and Mantell and the left wingman, 2nd Lt. B.A. Hammond, had not brought oxygen masks with them." Mantell, without oxygen, said he wanted to go up to 25,000 for 10 minutes, then if he could get no closer he would abandon the chase.

The wingmewn broke off the pursuit at 22,500 feet, and the last they saw of Mantell he was "still climbing almost directly into the sun," according to Clements. A couple of minutes later his plane was seen circling lazily around, and it seems obvious that he had passed out from lack of oxygen. The ground witness saw it start to spiral down and it started to break up in the air before pancaking to the ground.

The best guess is that Mantell was excited by the object he was viewing and committed a lapse of judgment under the very unusual circumstances. - Dick

- Dick

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@KONSULTING.COM>
Reply-To: Discussions about UFOs and research for CURRENT ENCOUNTERS       
Subject: Re: Mantell a Mystery?
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:21:17 -0400


Has the original report on this crash been located?  Some sort of official investigation would have taken place after this incident, but haven't seen any discussion of what it says about the accident.

Until Ray's post earlier today, I had not heard any reports that Mantell might have had oxygen, which I'll admit changes the story (if it's true). But I'm not sure we'll be able to resolve this without an official report that states the case.

Another question was raised regarding the debris field, and the fact that it didn't appear that this plane crashed from as high an altitude as alleged. In addition, one of the plane's wings had become seperated from the plane and was found a quarter of amile away, which would require a lot of stress to the plane.  Aviation writer, Don Berliner, indicated that it wasn't impossible for a plane to spiral down and land upright (as Mantell's appears to have), but it would have been unusual.  He said that the wing could also have been broken off while the plane was tumbling to the ground, but (again) that would have been very unusual.

So, a case that is probably older than most of us discussing it, has again reared its ugly head and confused us with evidence that we can either ignore or deal with.   Frustration has been expressed regarding the re-opening of this case to debate, but to my knowledge there are no major UFO cases that have been fully proven as mundane, and the Mantell crash is no different.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Francis Ridge" <nicap@INSIGHTBB.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: Mantell a Mystery?

At 01:01 PM 5/31/2006 -0300, Don wrote:

That's one I'd never heard before. As you say, hearsay, however. That portion of dialogue between the controllers and Mantell has never been mentioned, either to support that Mantell had the oxygen or that he did not. Frankly it has always bothered me that an experienced fighter pilot would ever climb past 12,000 feet [daytime flight] without oxygen. Excited he may have been about chasing the "object" but it would not compare with the various and heightened emotions that fighter pilots would experience when engaging an enemy.

That part has always bothered me, and you expressed it very well. I had said that Mantell had been in stressful situations in aerial combat, yet going after an unidentified object in broad daylight shouldn't have affected his mind enough to do something life threatening.

And while it was true that Mantell would have trouble reaching the balloon height (his 30,000 verses 50-100,000 ' for the balloon), the speed of the then one of the fastest airplanes we had of almost 450 mph would have overshot the higher object very quickly, not traveling faster or even "at half my speed".