The following is the original link to the page on
The UFO Chronicles, followed by the unedited
text for search purposes.
By Robby Vaughn
5-31-06
Any locomotive with structural
damage in this area would go to HLS for repair. CSX
only has three heavy repair facilities (I believe)
at Cumberland, MD, Huntington, WV and Waycross, GA.
Huntington is only 40 miles back north of where this
took place. Here's my take and comments on the
entire story as sent to me by a UFO investigator.
From the picture I sent you, it would seem to me the
unit was in the trail position since the metal roof
looks to be bent and pushed "forward", however this
does not jive with the statement that the trail unit
was "crushed" and smoking. No.3 looks more like it
was "clipped" but the metal is not pushed back.
1) The area reported is on trackage that belongs
to CSX on their Big Sandy Subdivision near
Richardson, KY. Double track extends for 6.1 miles
starting at KX Cabin, CMG 37.4, passes RN Cabin at
CMG 41.8 and ends at JB Cabin, CMG 43.5. You have
the screenshot with labels added. There is a 90
degree curve around CMG 42.3 or so.
2) The tracks run next to the river near CMG 42
but there are no "cliffs' carved out for the tracks.
There is a "hill" but there is also a road between
the tracks and any elevated landscape. All is
gentle, tree-covered private property with many
houses in the area. Here's a picture of a southbound
I shot running at speed passing the RN Cabin signal
at MP 41.8.
3) Track speed limits are 30mph for trains over
14,000 tons and 35 for trains under 14,000 tons. The
reported trailing tonnage of 16,000 tons makes this
a loaded 95-car train of WV black gold. 9 out of 10
trains of this type use 2 GE AC4400 engines which
have speed recorders that can be monitored by
remote. Crews rarely speed on Big Sandy due to the
curves, most of which have speed limits of 20-25mph.
A 16,000 ton train just doesn't get up to speed that
fast. As soon as an engineer could really get going,
he has to be on the dynamics for a curve..
4) CSX requires crews to call all signal
indications and report position every 10 minutes
over the radio if stopped. A meet with a train in
this area would have resulted in an "approach"
signal at KX and RN or a "restricting" signal if
they were required to stop at JB. Since they were
running 30 mph at impact, I assume they would have
had "Clear" signals at both location and had heard
nothing on the radio to indicate a meet.
5) The Wild KIngdom area is generally considered
to be the area near Ray and Whitehouse some 10 miles
further south.
6) A light "around the way" could have been from
a car since a state road runs next to the tracks at
this location. Many locals in this area have big
4WDs with off-road lights they like to burn on the
road whenever possible.
7) The crew would have been reacting quickly had
they been running track speed and not expecting a
meet. Without proper signal indication or radio
contact, they had no idea what track an opposing
train would be on. Although this is 6 miles of true
double track, dispatchers will route trains on
either track for various reasons. They would have
dimmed the headlight but also been on the radio and
off the throttle at the first notion they were
meeting a train unannounced.
8) When the engines lost power due to the
objects, the emergency brakes had applied as
reported. Running at 30 mph (speed limit), a train
in emergency rounding a curve is anything but
silent. Wheel flanges are riding up on the outside
rails and metal on metal sliding will wake the dead.
9) Impact was at 30mph? If making the speed limit
before the sighting, a train in emergency,
especially one rounding a curve with major
frictional forces in play will slow quickly. Impact
at 15 or 20mph would be more like it.
10) Stopped a mile and a half or two miles away?
No. Maybe if they were running 50mph on level and
straight tracks. Half mile to a mile would be more
like it. Remember we had a tight curve (friction)
and a slight uphill grade (gravity) along with full
brake application.
11) CSX dispatcher (AO or BK dispatcher for this
section of track) asked them if they could limp into
Paintsville yard 20 miles away. I have a problem
with this. They hit something that crushed two
100-ton locomotives and hammered two 150-ton coal
hoppers. Coal would have been littered everywhere,
perhaps blocking the tracks. There are public roads
right next to the tracks accessable from US-23. The
conductor would be required to walk the entire train
and perform a brake test at the very least, a
process that takes an hour or better. Remember, this
was at night and a guy scared to death would need to
hike almost a mile back to the rear while inspecting
things with a flashlight. Ever walk on ballast? Not
easy to do in the daytime, much less at night with
an unknown lurking around. The train could not be
moved per operating rules until a CSX trainmaster
had arrived and given the all clear. If impact was
at 2:47am, were up to at leat 4:00am now and
probably 5:00am.
12) Lets say they did limp to Paintsville, 20
miles south. The train would need to run restricted
speed or about 8-9 mph. Now we're arriving in
Paintsville at 6:00am or latter at the very
earliest. More like 7:00 knowing the way things
operate.
13) Lets say CSX finally did get the crew and
took them to Martin for drug testing. There is a
hospital in Martin but I doubt they would do a drug
screen quickly but maybe. The crew would have gone
to Shelby and placed in the motel but it's doubtful
they would be called for duty on their rest (8 hours
later) with a drug test pending and probably a major
investigation. You just don't crush a loaded coal
train with nothing and not undergo an investigation.
CSX runs by union rules remember.
<http://frankwarren.blogspot.com/2006/06/did-this-train-collide-with-ufo.html>See
Also: Did This Train Collide With a UFO?
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10 comments :
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/08862242047391509728>Spiritofwestvirginia<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1150092780000#c115009283694487907>11:13
PM
As a Big Sandy engineer for the most of 26 years,
it is doubtful to me that Mr. Vaughn has any real
experience of the actual operation of locomotives. I
had heard of this story and found this site to read
up on it. First off the wild kingdom some consider
to stretch from rb cabin to paintsville, secondly
when a locomotive experiences a loss of power the
emergency application of the brakes is not a instant
thing, it will offer in some cases a penalty brake,
before, any other application occurs. If you don't
think a locomotive and coal car consist can be
deadly silent, you may want to ask the many dead
brakemen and conductors who would argue differently,
especially if snow, rain, or ice is involed. Csx can
monitor about 40 percent of the fleet with gps,
however, gps is widely known to be "unavailible" on
much of the big sandy sub. As for walking a mile
back with a lantern, you can throw that out the
window, if air is recovered to the train and after
walking 6 cars back no further damage is encoutered
outside of the two hammered lead cars, then you try
and yank on them, if they move, and the train doesnt
go into emergency, you travel restricted speed until
your lead set of wheels passes the next more
favorable signal indication. As for CSX Crews being
required to call signals, I can assure you that we
are also required to wear safety glasses while in
the cab, have a one inch defineable heel on our
boots and actually be sick when we lay off, none of
which happens on a frequent basis. If I'M running on
clear or medium clear and I see a headlight, and
have not heard the other crew call signals, i don't
go into a panic notch off or get a little air, i go
on , simply because if he was fouling my track I'd
be running on a restricting or restricted proceed.
Csx conducts it's own drug screenings, unless a
motor vehicle with casualties is involved, meaning,
a nice young lady from around prestonsburg drives to
martin collects urine and drives off. Now if a 5 car
manifest train or a 7 car work train clears the
signal and knows he will be waiting on one or two
trains, it is not "unusual" for the boys, to clear
up, kick their feet up and leave a headlamp on dim.
Some engineers will extinguish all lights but the
number lights, during a pass, which is, dare i say,
against the rules, and some will kick it down to
just a dim headlamp. IF a train is cleared up you
will be running on speed.As far as stopping distance
on 16,000 or 12,000 tons for that matter, this is
not a car, or even a tractor trailer, I've been
forced to use the emergency feature on many
occasions, if that is in fact what kicked in and not
the penalty brake and then emergency, which is still
considered an emergency application of the brakes, a
mile would be hard pressing it probably more like 2
especially if any inclimate weather or conditions
were involved, yes even with a slight uphill grade
and a curve. I would invite anyone who would like to
stand in the tracks a half a mile away waiting on a
stop to go ahead and jump in, you won't be around
for the results. Now was this crew going on speed,
probably not, probably over a little, as i said 40
percent now are gps but not nearly that high a few
years back. And I know the rule book says to use the
dynamic brakes but until around the last year or so
the preferred braking procedure for many big sandy
engineers, was the "against the rules" stretch
braking system, slide'em in hot and pull em out the
same. time is money. And if you don't think that
every hill or cliff or mountainside was cleared
specifically for the laying of the tracks, you
really need to work on your history, in most cases
nothing existed until these tracks were laid, a vast
majority of the towns in this area were built
because of mines and railroads.Do I think these guys
hit a spaceship from another planet? No, but they
hit something or something hit them because I
remember the coal spillage in that area and I also
know the boys were held out "critical incident" for
three days after they got back to russell the next
day. Not because of a pending drug test, which does
not pull you out of service unless you are deemed to
be totally at fault during an incident with proof
such as a download or camera shots. Yes the
Huntington locomotive repair facility would be an
ideal place, but did you know that shelby has a
repair facility too? defunct but operational and yes
a turntable and a big covered building used to wash
locomotives back in the day. Truth is the
locomotives could have went anywhere including back
to russell on the scheduled manifest that night with
the two heavy bad order cars which could be dumped
and turned into scrap within an hour. As for limping
into paintsville, the general public is not privy to
nor do they care what goes on in the old yard, it is
has tree cover on both sides and building cover as
well. Sure you could probably walk past all the
maintenance of way trucks and equipment past the old
depot and get a look see at the yard, without being
arrested immediately, but why, if there is no
explosion and no official on tv telling you it's ok
to go back to your house, these people don't care,
seeing cars and equipment even of the damaged
variety to them is like seeing a you may have one a
million dollars letter in the mail, it's common
place, they've been raised around it. Furthermore if
CSX wants to cover up an incident or just make it
disappear, they just do it, if it doesnt make the
news, it's probably going to get burried, it keeps
the FRA off their backs, if you don't trust me, do a
little investigating into the RCO operations at
russell, more drailments and injuries have come from
the box in the past couple of years, than the last
ten over the road, but guess what? not a thing on
paper. Being a rail fan is a great hobby, somebody
giving you a timetable is dandy,if i see you out
there i may toss you a water and a crew pack, but it
definitely gives you little to no insight on the
actual operation of trains on the line of road.
Reply
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/18211373074817092828>Frank
Warren<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1150316280000#c115031633288176676>1:18
PM
Robby Vaughn Writes:
I do agree with the engineer who
responded to this, I have no experience behind the
controls of any locomotive of any type nor have I
ever claimed to have any experience running tonnage
coal trains on Big Sandy. I have three engineering
degrees but no "engineer" experience. I did
previously work for Siemens Corporation as an
electrical design engineer. Siemens makes many of
the inverters and electrical components used in some
of CSX's fleet.
However, what portion of my response
does this person dispute? Most of the speed limit,
milepost, cabin locations etc are straight from
published CSX timetables and rule books. I've spent
years in the area on the ground observing the
railroad's operation and I'm personal friends with
many CSX employees including T&E crews. You've
seen the photographs of the reported impact site,
show me where the reported cliff is? I know several
engineer's who have struck people, vehicles, damaged
RR equipment, etc and are taken out of service (held
out) upon arrival at the next terminal or taxied
from the location. Please tell me he can honestly
state that he could make a call to Jacksonville
telling them he has just damaged two locomotives
(one "smoking") and two coal cars that did obviously
result in a sizable amount of spilled coal (per his
observation) and they would be told to run on into
Paintsville without walking the ! train or some
on-site investigation by upper management. If they
did this and a damaged car etc caused a later
derailment resulting in serious property damage or
injury, the crew and dispatcher would be lucky to
get through the investigation with their jobs. One
engineer I know who works for CSX tells me they are
instructed not to exit the locomotive, or give their
names or ID to emergency crews (police included)
responding to train/vehicle impacts until a
trainmaster, etc arrives on the scene. Most will not
even depart a terminal if there is the slightest FRA
violation concern with a locomotive such as a burned
out headlight/ditchlight or expired paperwork. These
guys live by the rule book. Tell your management you
hit a UFO such that they feel you need drug tested
and go back in service on your rest? Please contact
a CSX trainmaster or road foreman and ask them if
this would happen.
Ask him about the cell phone, I know
some of these guys, if this had happened they would
have been calling everyone they knew even if it had
been the wee hours of the morning chatting about
what just took place. Taking his phone away several
hours later would have been way too late. There is
cell service in the Richardson area, I've made calls
from RN cabin myself.
I do agree with this person that
"something" possibly took place. I have provided
photo evidence of a roof damaged locomotive although
I can not confirm if this is one of the units
involved. There is also the possibility that they
struck something suspended from the road bridge just
south of RN cabin. However, I would assume that
anyone with any time on Big Sandy would have known
there was a bridge in that location and considered
the possibility of a vehicle accident that had sent
a car/truck over the edge. In which case I pray they
would have asked for emergency support or used the
cell phone to dial 911. I still don't believe this
story is supported by enough facts. Please ask this
person to comment on each point I have made and
explain my errors. Possibly other than exact
stopping distance of a train in emergency rounding a
90 degree curve on a slight grade running at
something less than 30 mph, what are my mistakes?
Al! so, if the engines were in total power failure,
what powered the alarms that were sounding in the
cab? I do have copies the GE operating guides and
technical workbooks for AC4400's if there is some
reference to a backup power supply for alarms only
it should be identified in one of these.
Robby Vaughn Reply
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/18211373074817092828>Frank
Warren<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1150319280000#c115031929124415829>2:08
PM
This comment has been removed by a
blog administrator. Reply
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/08862242047391509728>Spiritofwestvirginia<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1150393500000#c115039355632974705>10:45
AM
The fact that you have engineering
degrees, has absolutely nothing to do with
locomotive engineering, as I'm sure you will confirm
you can have a degree in electrical engineering
through college, but you can not become qualified in
locomotive engineering unless you are in train and
engine service and have attended classes by way of
Cumberland, MD or Atlanta nowadays. As for your
posted speed limits and tonnage restrictions, it's
like I said Robby, time is money, and no, not
everybody lives and dies by the rulebook at CSX,
that's just completely off base. It's becoming more
true now thanks to Tony Ingram, but not in 02. Your
many train and engine service friends, whom I have
not met yet and I'm looking, most likely either blow
smoke up your tail pipe or you have happened upon
the safest, most responsible, official fearing men
in the history of the line. I think my points of
contention were pretty well lined out in the last
post, but here we go. Around milepost cmg 42 is this
where they came to a stop, is this the the point of
impact either way, it is clear that there is a
hillside, two sets of tracks, and a river in this
vicinity, if you want to call it a clyffside, I'm
sure you'll get that Robby, you say tomato i say
tomatoe. I know where the impact must of took place
due to spillage, nowhere close to the bridge, and to
question a train crew not knowing the difference
between a car, truck, whatever dangling off an
overhead, and a clearly "unusual" type of encounter,
is just stupidity. Oh yes your cell phone has great
range, we all bow to the ever present signal you
must enjoy, but, railroaders use different services,
such as sprint, cingular, att at that time, among
others, to boldly say they should have a signal
without the facts, is an attempt by you to discredit
this crew, when it is you who should be
discredited.I had sprint and lost my signal at
burnaugh and got it back periodically at
pburg,paintsville, and martin, it's why i switched.
RB Cabin which is also rusty bridge cabin is a
railroad bridge, JB cabin is an overhead, your
"years" on the ground in observation are really
starting to show. As for giving authorities proper
paperwork and blah blah blah, these are all standard
operating procedures if you have struck a vehicle at
a highway crossing. Please get your trusty csx rule
book out and turn to the pyramid of authority.
Timetables are superseded, by bulletins, and
bulletins are superseded by verbal instruction of
the dispatcher. If the dispatcher tells you to do a
quick inspection and roll on to a intermediate
terminal, you don't question it, you just do it.
This happened in the middle of nowhere, there was no
calvary coming to aid this crew, police,
trainmaster, or otherwise. Heres some homework for
you Robby, check into the q634, or 5 that this exact
scenario happened to a month or two ago on the great
northern sub, somewhere near chilicothe ohio, a
defect detector had nabbed the train for a second
time,the dispatcher instructed this crew to clear up
the main, don't pretend to know what really goes on
out here, if you don't work out here you really
don't. Get your ge manuals out and your schematics
for locomotives because heres another lesson free of
charge, if the units die in transit an alarm bell
sounds, that's it no big mystery, when the guy says
power was restored after stopping, it means he was
able to get both units back online. power equals the
locomotives in consist. Mr. Vaughn it gives me
absolutely no joy to tell you I have been involved
in a few road crossing incidents,DRUG TESTED EACH
TIME, Never pulled from service, never found to be
at fault and only served critical incident time on
one occasion, after I made a return trip on my rest.
Yes if you tell them you are shook up and can't
continue your trip, they'll taxi you home, but if
you say, i'm good to go, you lace em up and keep
right on at it. Your over estimation of the
importance of low level officials, trainmasters,
roadforemen and the like lead me to think you have
befriended officials and not engineers and
conductors. Getting information from them is a
dangerous proposition. In conclusion, it is clear to
me now that the railfans, that I used to think were
just harmless enthusiasts are in fact, hazardous to
the day to day operations of a class 1 railroad,
picture taking has progressed into the use of
restricted radio frequencies, and so on. Taking this
into account it will be my new ambition to report
all encounters with unauthorized personell on or
near the tracks or csx property as potential
terrorist activity and clear the rail for honest men
trying to work, per the rules. Reply
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/18211373074817092828>Frank
Warren<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1150395120000#c115039517421665753>11:12
AM
Good Day Spiritofwestvirginia !
Thank you for your continuing input.
Could you contact me privately?
Thanks, Frank
frank-warren@pacbell.net Reply
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/03605435879163018481>Robby<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1152247920000#c115224793661339595>9:52
PM
Sorry for taking so long to respond
to this nice discussion but work took me across the
big pond the last few weeks and internet access was
only one direction by plugging coins into a hotel
terminal. I’m sitting in an airport with a 4 hour
layover and I’m jetlagged so let’s keep the dialogue
going but I may skip around a little.
For the record Mr.
Spirtofwestvirginia, or can I call you #1 since you
choose to remain anonymous probably for good reason,
I am not trying to discredit an honest CSX Big Sandy
crew, I am questioning a wild story posted on an
internet forum. I do not work for the railroad and
thus don’t have all the smallest operational details
available to me, however, almost all my statements
still hold true. The story is missing or
misrepresenting many important details that would
give it more credibility. The burden of proof for
any story such as this rest in unquestionable and
confirmable details, not general statements that can
be easily disputed. I, a non-railroad employee,
could have come up with something more concrete
given a little time and a desire to do so. Stories
just can’t be changed after the fact and still be
held with the same level of confidence they
initially had or supported by someone who just says
yes it happened. The story in question goes into
serious detail in certain parts but then gets very
general or leaves out important details required to
make it believable. Don’t try to debunk me, you’re
shifting the focus away from the real subject which
is this encounter report submitted as a first person
factual event. Step back, take a deep breath and ask
yourself if each detail seems consistent with your
experience. Support the story with valid statements
that can’t be questioned. Show us a picture of coal
spilled at (or near) CMG 42, don’t just throw out a
statement that you’ve seen spilled coal somewhere in
the area.
Some of my concerns about the
validity of the story include describing the scene
and giving the milepost but leaving out the fact
that a wide public road runs next to the tracks at
the area reported. The story implies there is only a
river, the tracks and a cliff (or a hillside) at
this point. The description provided would be
accurate for the Pikeville Cut Through but not
milepost 42.
Loaded coal trains running 35, 30 or
even 25 mph are not silent, ever. The sound of steel
wheels on steel track echoes through the hills and
mountains. Crew members have unfortunately been hit
and killed but I would hazard to guess because of
other ambient noise, inattention, working next to
idling power, or any number of other reasons. In the
dead cold of a winter night away from busy streets
or highways you can hear trains coming for miles
even if they are not under emergency braking. Trying
to imply, as the story does, that the object didn’t
move because it didn’t “hear” the approach is silly.
A hovering helicopter probably couldn’t hear an
approaching train even if the horn was sounded, a
hovering UFO would probably have means beyond our
understanding to detect movement.
Stopping distance can be affected by
weather conditions as you state but a quick internet
search for that day shows a high of 52 and an
overnight low of 33 with no measurable rainfall. In
fact, there was no rain or snow in the area for two
weeks prior to the date and no frost with the above
freezing temperatures that night. The data is valid
for Ashland and Jackson so unless the objects
influenced the weather, we can assume nominal
braking conditions near Richardson that morning.
The Wild Kingdom, Wild Turkey Roost,
Animial Land, old retired C&O engineers made
reference to the area between Ray and Whitehouse as
such. Old habits usually die hard in the mountains
but if modern crews have extended it up to RB and
down to Paintsville, I’ll take your word on it. If
you call it that, I can’t dispute it.
Where did the government
trucks/cars/equipment come from? Is there some
post-it note above the desk of every dispatcher in
Jacksonville reminding them to immediately call a
certain government “black” task force if a train
hits a UFO? It would have been well after three a.m.
before a call could be placed and they were waiting
when the train arrived in Paintsville a little under
2 hours later? Are we to assume taxpayers support
these quick reaction UFO investigation forces all
over the US because we are being visited so often?
No wonder my tax rate is so high. This just begs to
be questioned.
Or do we accept the possibility this
was a super secret test flight hundreds of miles
from the nearest military base. Did the Air Force
fly three super secret aircraft down from Wright
Patterson to look for night crawlers on the banks of
the Levisa Fork? Any man-made craft would need to
adhere to earth-bound physics and been as light as
possible. How massive would something need to be to
hit not one but two massive steel locomotives,
expending enormous amounts of energy and then
“hammer” not one but two coal cars filled with
energy absorbing material (coal)? Too many questions
here to explore. Impacting a stationary object not
secured by some means normally causes a reaction
that pushes it out away from the moving object if it
does not break up. Consider the reaction of a golf
club hitting a golf ball vs a golf club hitting a
raw egg. Strike a 2-ton vehicle at a grade crossing
and it gets either bounced off to one side, bounced
out in front of the engine and struck a second time
or stuck to the front of the engine trailing parts
as it breaks up. Strike any aircraft we now admit to
having in service with a locomotive and it should
shatter into many smaller chunks in a fireball with
much of the parts scattered away from the point of
impact. A small Jet Ranger weighs in at 3,200 lbs,
about the same as a car, a Blackhawk weigh in at
20,000 to 22,000 lbs or about 10 tons. Up against a
16,000 ton mass moving at 30mph, even this large
aircraft would be bounced away from the train if it
were made of some super alloy that prevented it from
being shattered into tiny chunks. The damage
described would indicate the object remained either
in the same position while the train passed under it
totally intact or had motion of its own in a
direction opposite to the direction of travel of the
train. How much damage does a 2-ton vehicle do to a
locomotive’s pilot, not much considering the forces
in play. How much mass would the object need to
cause the reported damage? Think about this. It
would have needed to stay totally intact, but
somehow come up with enough downward momentum after
glancing off the roof of the lead unit to crash down
into the trailing unit, raise up twice more and find
the energy to come crashing down into each coal car
all within less than the time it took two 73 foot
locomotives and two 50 foot cars to pass under it at
30mph or just a few seconds.
Your comments about a repair
facility at Shelby are true but I’m pretty sure the
engines would have maybe been only stored there if
anything. That shop only has a mechanic on call if
needed, true? He comes down from Huntington for
emergencies only? CSX eliminated all service down
there except for truck refueling and sanding am I
right? You failed to mention Russell itself which
still sports a nice service center as well. Neither
Shelby nor Russell are set up for heavy structural
repair/rebuild, for this area, Huntington would be
the only viable option.
For the record, calls to a contact
at the Russell Service Center resulted in much
laughing, a call to a contact at HLS promised they
would look for the CSX #3 repair records but I’ve
not talked to them in three weeks. A call to a
certain salvage company which would have been
contracted to either clear up spilled coal in any
great amount or cut up the cars on-site or upon
return to Russell resulted in nothing being worked
during that time period. Yet more calls to Russell
led to an accident that did occur on 1/12/02 when a
Pike 29 Shifter backed through a switch on the
SV&E Sub and put several cars on the ground
upright. There was no damage to the locomotives.
(Pike 29 is a C&O-carry-over name for a large
mine/prep plant located near Shelby, a shifter is
just a term for the train loading the coal cars at
the mine and the SV&E is a former B&O branch
line that runs out of Shelby Yard for those not
familiar with the area.) If the railroad had
intended to cover up any accident, why cover one up
that by all initial indication was not a result of
CSX operator or operating error while freely
reporting on a train that back up through a switch
improperly two days before?
I also polled several engineers (5,
not all Big Sandy qualified) who for the most part
contend they would have backed off the throttle and
been on the radio if they thought they were coming
up on an unexpected meet. The most experienced
person quoted he would have only been giving the
opposing crew grief about failure to dim their
headlight and took your stance that he would have
just kept on rolling without a second thought.
Another person reminded me that the Big Sandy was in
the early stages of a CTC signal upgrade and would
not have trusted his life to a light bulb this close
to the end of double track. There was also a comment
made about CSX might have felt the need to cover up
an incident such as this if there had been a false
indication due to previous signal work and a near
miss/slight contact between two trains had taken
place. A disgruntled employee could have fabricated
the story in hopes of exposing the real incident and
getting the FRA all up in CSX’s business.
I guess, let me address the last
posted comments one by one. The most important one
being an observation from a locomotive engineer who
told me the train in question would not have been
moved if it was suspected they had hit a manned
object. It’s illegal to leave the scene of an
accident, plain and simple.
>The fact that you have
engineering degrees, has absolutely nothing to
>do with locomotive engineering, as I'm sure you
will confirm you can >have a degree in electrical
engineering through college, but you can >not
become qualified in locomotive engineering unless
you are in train >and engine service and have
attended classes by way of Cumberland, >MD or
Atlanta nowadays.<
Again, I never once claimed to have
any experience remotely associated with
“driving/operating” a train (I use driving not out
of disrespect here but only to clarify the
difference between the two professions). I do have
electrical engineering degrees and use them to
design electrical systems. This does not require me
to attend the classes in Cumberland or anywhere else
to become associated with train handling. This is
the same thing as saying each and every NASA
engineer must be a trained astronaut.
>As for your posted speed
limits and tonnage restrictions, it's like I said
>Robby, time is money, and no, not everybody
lives and dies by the >rulebook at CSX, that's
just completely off base.
True, but I was only trying to be
respectful of your profession. Funny how on most
internet forums, if a “fan” or “FRN” as I know many
of your coworkers like to call photographers, states
he saw train XYZ not blow his horn for the ABC
crossing, 400 professional railroad engineers will
chime in stating how this would never happen and how
officials for the LMN&OP railroad are probably
pulling logs in order to track down the offending
crew. I make a statement implying that “most” crews
obey the rules and now I’m chastised for not having
a clue. You will need to respond to the “time is
money” comments to justify speeding as I know
locomotive wages are almost as much a mystery as
airline ticket prices. Is it not true that not all
“jobs” are paid by the mile and most in fact are
based on hours worked and governed under the federal
hours of service laws? Is this not based on the
pre-post-1985 contract rule? Many crews get paid if
they move an inch or not or draw a guarantee if on
an extra board. Regardless, trains are governed by a
dispatcher who can keep you in a siding as long as
he feels is needed. It’s point A to point B, not
like you can see how far you’ll get by going 35 vs
30 unless you’re trying to double turn back home and
avoid waiting on a taxi. Work your time, get paid
and stop working when your time expires. Unless you
want to get home to catch the Thundering Herd on the
big screen, why speed at all?
>I think my points of
contention were pretty well lined out in the last
>post, but here we go.
Sorry, but I never read your last
post or saw this website until this week, I was
responding by blind email.
>Around milepost cmg 42 is
this where they came to a stop, is this the >the
point of impact either way, it is clear that there
is a hillside, two >sets of tracks, and a river
in this vicinity, if you want to call it a
>clyffside, I'm sure you'll get that Robby, you
say tomato i say tomatoe.
I Got it, Clyffside is a “station”
up on the Kanawha Sub between Catlettsburg and
Ashland. I’m saying if they bother to go into detail
describing the terrain, then why get it wrong by
omitting the big old road parallel to the tracks and
a house or two unless they were trying to paint the
area as more remote than it really is. Kinda hard to
miss something like that I would think?
>know where the impact must
of took place due to spillage, nowhere >close to
the bridge, and to question a train crew not knowing
the >difference between a car, truck, whatever
dangling off an overhead, >and a clearly
"unusual" type of encounter, is just stupidity. <
Stupidity? The point I was trying to
make is that there is a road overpass near CMG 42
and something could have been suspended, pushed,
thrown, etc from this structure. Now that we know
not everyone drawing a paycheck from CSX is perfect
and lives by the rulebook, who’s to say these guys
were less than wide awake and the local yahoos
didn’t get bored and toss a washing machine, engine
block, etc off the bridge that bounced into the
river? Since we’re being real now, I’ve been offered
cab rides (and they were offered, I’ve never asked)
only to have the conductor crashed out asleep for
most of the trip. This was 2:47 am Monday morning,
the crew could have been fighting sleep after having
the weekend off living normal hours and Billy Bob
and friends decided to line up the F-150s and crank
on the KCs while killing PBRs and sucking on red box
marlies until the next train rolled by and then got
some jollies playing shove the old engine block over
the side. Again, I’m not being stupid; I’m trying to
find a down to earth explanation for damage to the
top of a locomotive. Of course anything that could
be hand thrown or pushed could not have done the
described damage. There is only one big curve near
42 and its right before the bridge. You’ve seen the
coal spilled, where exactly did the impact take
place? Taking a good cop/bad cop point of view,
let’s get real and make sure we agree that wine door
latches on old 3 & 4 bays fail and air dump
doors on hoppers do come open in route from time to
time because of either improper closing, structure
failure or rough train handling causing nice piles
inside the track gauge at random locations.
>Oh yes your cell phone has
great range, we all bow to the ever present
>signal you must enjoy, but, railroaders use
different services, such as >sprint, cingular,
att at that time, among others, to boldly say they
>should have a signal without the facts, is an
attempt by you to discredit >this crew, when it
is you who should be discredited.I had sprint and
lost >my signal at burnaugh and got it back
periodically at pburg,paintsville, >and martin,
it's why I switched.
Why take this tone with me over
this. I am bound by the same cell phone offers as
everyone else in the state of Kentucky. They don’t
issue special satellite phones to non-railroaders
with magical service range everywhere in the US. I
like my money just as much as the next guy and go
for the best deals. I had Bellsouth at the time and
often had great service in the middle of no where
but couldn’t make a call from downtown Pikeville to
save my life. That was just a fact I threw out, like
it or not, I’ve talked on my magic cell phone in
Richardson around the time in question before.
>RB Cabin which is also
rusty bridge cabin is a railroad bridge, JB cabin
>is an overhead, your "years" on the ground in
observation are really >starting to show.
What are we talking about here? Did
I ever say RB stood for anything else? Did I make
any statement at all about the CTC equipment at JB?
The only time I’ve discussed RB was in response to
an email question asking if there was a RR bridge 42
miles south of Russell. I responded with the
location of the only major crossing of the Levisa
anywhere close and that is just geographically north
(RR west) of the RB signals. Since the Big Sandy
milepost don’t start from 0.0 at Russell, they start
at Big Sandy Junction near Catlettsburg 10 miles
south of Russell, a bridge 42 miles south of Russell
would be near CMG 32 not 42. The bridge near RB is
closer to something like CMG 27 but that was the
only thing close. As you well know, the only other
Levisa crossing is miles to the south (RR east) near
BU and did not fit the question so it was left out
of my response. I also omitted any short deck
bridges over creeks that were not close enough to
the Levisa to fit the story setting. I notice in the
previous posting you question my knowledge of RR
history. What historical part have I been wrong
about up to this point? Just as a note, the C&O
Historical Society feels I know what I’m talking
about and has used me for reference in several books
and publications. This is a matter of record, buy
some of the books by TLC Publishing and look for my
name. The current RR bridge at RB dates back only as
far as 1914 when the C&O made curvature
improvements to handle larger equipment. The old
bridge, built by the Chattaroi Railroad to reach a
mine at Peach Orchard in a round about path through
Richardson, now serves as the single-lane road
bridge near Walbridge and the abandoned tunnel later
bored to make the crazy 90 degree curve line up with
the river in later years by the C&O still exist
to the east of the RB signals and you drive through
it to access the switch at RB. The old CRR grade to
Richardson is now KY 16 something, 70-80 or 90 maybe
and ventured far away from the river and required a
long tunnel through the ridge since they didn’t own
the right of way along the Levisa back pre-1900. The
CRR came back alongside the Levisa a few miles north
of Richardson near Ben Bowl or Ben Bow (something
like that) and the old roadbed through here is now
the paved road running next to the current CSX
tracks and the reported point of impact. The reason
I question the described lay of the land as the
river, track one, track two and a cliff. Not
accurate. My time on the ground has been well spent,
why is it in question?
>>As for giving
authorities proper paperwork and blah blah blah,
>…….don't pretend to know what really goes on out
here, if you don't >work out here you really
don't.
True, I don’t work out there so it
is impossible for me to know every little detail of
what goes on. I did call some of my CSX (locomotive)
engineer buddies and they did confirm just what you
said. A crew can go right back on duty following an
accident pending an investigation or drug
test……under certain conditions. However, none of the
guys I talked to thought this would happen in this
case. Massive equipment damage and a crew with a
wild story about seeing UFOs add up to either drug
or liquid refreshment abuse. They also agree with me
on the conductor would have walked the train and
then some depending on the actual stopping distance.
This crew saw something, they hit something, they
did some major damage if we believe the story, the
train probably took a mile or more to stop. The
conductor would have needed to walk the train back
to see if someone (something in this case) needed
help or wait on help to arrive. Again, this is not
the middle of nowhere the story implies, it’s only a
mile or so off the four-lane US-23 on well paved
roads. The procedure you outlined is valid for an
unexpected emergency application such as caused by a
kicker , etc but this train hit what could have been
a helicopter in use by the DEA looking for some of
Kentucky’s famous cash crop, the state police
searching for criminals or (unlikely) a hover craft
being tested by the government? To most of the real
world, a hovering object with spotlights would be
considered to be under human control. Leaving the
scene of such is against the laws of the United
States, not a CSX rule. Anyone involved in and
leaving the scene of any accident can be brought up
on criminal charges. Saying the dispatcher told them
to move without attempting to render assistance
would likely not stand up in court. I still say a
freaked out conductor would have taken well over an
hour to gain his composure and creep back to the
impact site, and used even more time inspecting the
damaged equipment and searching the area for a
downed craft. I just don’t think you can argue with
this one.
>Get your ge manuals out
and your schematics for locomotives because
>heres another lesson free of charge, if the
units die in transit an alarm >bell sounds,
that's it no big mystery, when the guy says power
was >restored after stopping, it means he was
able to get both units back >online. power equals
the locomotives in consist.
Granted, but as reported, this was
not your normal loss of power due to any number of
common real life (ECU failure, oil pressure loss,
over temp, etc) reasons. This was implied by the
story to be due to an encounter with the objects
which caused the classic stopped watch and total
loss of electrical power scenario. In theory, this
is due to encountering an ultra high level
electromagnetic or magnetic field used to propel the
“UFO”. This, in fact, is a well proven effect of
subjecting unshielded electronic equipment to an EMP
(electromagnetic pulse) or high flux magnetic fields
which can induce high currents within a “chip” and
disrupt its operation or melt the tiny
interconnections that are only microns wide in some
cases. Stand under a high tension power line with a
florescent lamp in your hand and watch it glow or
place a magnet on top of your TV set to see this
“flux” in action. The government/law enforcement
agencies have been doing research into using this as
a non-lethal method of stopping speeding cars, etc.
(Watch the Discovery Channel) My assumption is that
if the crew experienced such a high level of flux
that would kill a watch, the unshielded locomotive
electronics would have likewise been “killed” and
probably not recovered. No subsystem in the
locomotive is built to mil-specs for EMP shielding
so I feel this is a valid assumption. Kill the
watch, kill the computer controls that manage the
diesel engines, no alarms, no controls other than
the mechanical failsafe braking system. The odd
part, of course, is that the engines started working
again while the watch did not. Once subjected to
such fields, most “chips” or circuits used in such
things as the computers, sensors, radios, etc are
fried due to what is known as EOS or electrostatic
over stress. They don’t just return to normal after
the field is removed, they are zapped. A mechanical
watch would probably be magnetized in this case and
fail to ever work again unless degaussed.
>It gives me absolutely no
joy to tell you I have been involved in a few
>road crossing incidents,DRUG TESTED EACH TIME,
Never pulled from >service, never found to be at
fault and only served critical incident >time on
one occasion, after I made a return trip on my rest.
Yes if you >tell them you are shook up and can't
continue your trip, they'll taxi you >home, but
if you say, i'm good to go, you lace em up and keep
right on >at it.
My sincere condolences for any
lasting affects these grade accidents have caused
you. No one should be subjected to the mental trauma
inflicted by idiot drivers or selfish suicides.
However, I again believe there is a difference in
striking a trespasser or vehicle and calling in a
story about hitting a hovering UFO that damaged your
ride and then made off without a trace.
>Your over estimation of
the importance of low level officials,
>trainmasters, roadforemen and the like lead me
to think you have >befriended officials and not
engineers and conductors. Getting >information
from them is a dangerous proposition.
True, very true. I know many
officials at almost every level, most due to family
ties and not my “hobby”. I guess I can only respond
with the question of who allows you to go on duty.
Is it common to come up with wild stories and have
any of these guys laugh it off and put you back in
the lineup? Let’s say you run through a stop
indication and then blame it on a unicorn standing
trackside. Would anyone out there really tell you to
go back to work without thinking you’re on something
and probably would still be under its influence 8
hours later? Maybe, maybe not.
>In conclusion, it is clear
to me now that the railfans, that I used to
>think were just harmless enthusiasts are in
fact, hazardous to the day >to day operations of
a class 1 railroad, picture taking has progressed
>into the use of restricted radio frequencies,
and so on. Taking this into >account it will be
my new ambition to report all encounters with
>unauthorized personell on or near the tracks or
csx property as >potential terrorist activity and
clear the rail for honest men trying to >work,
per the rules.
Whoa, now I’m a terrorist because I
take pictures? I’m a hazard to the operation of the
railroad? How did our discussion progress you into
making this decision? Sorry, but taking photographs
from public property is a right protected by the
constitution of the United States. I have family
members who have served this country and paid with
their lives so I can enjoy this freedom. Granted, if
I’m transmitting on an AAR radio frequency, call the
FCC. If I’m standing in the middle of a yard or on
the tracks, I should be reported as a trespasser.
Unlike large urban areas, most of the land next to
the tracks in the Appalachians is either public or
private and not under railroad control. However,
calling in anything like this as a possible
terrorist act just because you spot someone with a
camera pointed in your direction will have the same
effect as the little boy yelling wolf too many
times. No one will be paying attention when the next
Osama Bin Buttwipe is spotted placing charges on a
structure with real intent. Think railroads are
being singled out by photographers or “fans”. Try
spending a day in my shoes working for an automotive
company. Most of our plants are open for public
tours making you feel a little like the panda
exhibit at a zoo, automotive journalist are
constantly publishing articles about what XYZ
engineers are doing, why they did what they did and
why we must be stupid for bringing a feature to
market. Next, hit the road for a real life driving
evaluation in a new model under layers of masking
tape and watch the idiots try to get the money shot
by driving as stupid as possible. I have hats and
shirts from almost all the big car companies and
even mount different emblems on the vehicles just to
have fun. I’ve had my picture taken and published in
several mags and websites with so much incorrect
information it’s unbelievable. Are any of these guys
terrorist, no. Yes, some railfans are a little on
the odd side and usually one bad apple can spoil the
hobby for the rest of the responsible guys enjoying
a day in the great outdoors. Do you really think
most of these guys don’t have the emergency number
for every railroad in the state on speed dial and
would call in to report someone tampering with
infrastructure as soon as they spotted it happening?
I’m not the enemy because I question a wild story.
Reply
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/08862242047391509728>Spiritofwestvirginia<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1152350220000#c115235027533683557>2:17
AM
Robby, I think you're right. You and
I got off on the wrong foot in large part because I
am usually pretty quick to defend guys I work with.
I will make a public apology for the stupidity
remark as it was off base and was meant to be a
description of an action and not a personal attack.
That being said I still disagree with you on many
counts, however, if you know old Jesse Smith and the
folks at the C&O Historical, and they ask you
for information, well that speaks volumes. Now could
you imagine that if every time I saw spilled coal or
grain, I snapped a picture. I thought it must have
been a derail or along these lines. A few weeks ago
was the first time I've ever heard this other stuff
about flying saucers, and no I don't think ufo's are
real. What I do know is my stretch of road, places
you see on occasion or for sport I travel to the
tune of about 400 plus times per year. I don't know
where you found the 5 guys at again, but I'm telling
you this stuff you keep coming up with as far as
radio rules, is not based in fact, I explained to
you why and have no desire to repeat myself again.
Louisa is cmg 22.7 - 23.9 the area is not heavily
populated and 18 rail miles away from Louisa. Heres
a rundown of signals pre change out 27.3 rb
cabin-29.8torchlight-32.5ch cabin-36 beech
farm-37.4kx cabin-38.8 2only-40 benbowe-41.8 rn
cabin-43.5jb cabin-44.8 patrick-46 west end ray.
Again it is entirely possible for a train to go
quiet. Let me explain using buff and draft forces.
If the train is bunched up and shoving you it is not
going to make as much noise as if you have it
stretched and are pulling on them, where a lot of
the squeak and squal comes from, subsequently,
silent to me is not going to be silent to you, pre
earplugs in the crew pack days have took their toll.
I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor as I
can assure you if you call anyone not just CSX with
questions about a ufo incident, well you're gonna
get a lot of laughter. I really wish I could argue
with you further, but no matter how much I describe
in detail where you have been in error , you claim
with your next post that you have not been in error.
It makes for a frustrating conversation. I do think
you are trying though and I realize by not working
out here you and I have a way different perspective,
for example, it's kind of like you put a stapler in
your desk at work 4 years ago, it mysteriously
disappears, then I have sometime in the past taken a
picture of your desk and the surrounding area, so
being an expert on your desk by way of familiarity,
i start to speculate on the whereabouts of the
stapler. You know it was in there but I want a
picture for proof. Then I toss in some untruths and
half truths just to get things rolling. Here's
something for you Robby,
spiritofwestvirginia@yahoo.com feel free to write me
I'm not anonymous to those who know me. Reply
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/13760696295440559201>The
Lurker<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1153744380000#c115374438830485981>5:33
AM
This comment has been removed by a
blog administrator. Reply
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/13760696295440559201>The
Lurker<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1153744680000#c115374473690882672>5:38
AM
"Check into the q634, or 5 that this
exact scenario happened to a month or two ago on the
great northern sub, somewhere near chilicothe ohio,
a defect detector had nabbed the train for a second
time,the dispatcher instructed this crew to clear up
the main.."
It's the Northern Subdivision and
the train was Q635.
This incident and the decision to
pull the train after fouling two detectors, caused
the DS and the crew to have time on the streets.
The locomotive damage looks
suspiciously like what you would see when a engine
strikes a lowered flood loader at a coal mine.
The Lurker Reply
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<http://www.blogger.com/profile/07613625348700407961>Peter<http://www.theufochronicles.com/2006/06/further-analysis-of-trainufo-collision.html?showComment=1307331716469#c8206599482351018314>8:41
PM
You didn't know rail-fans listen to
scanners to follow operations?. I've using my
scanner for years. The Northern sub is the "HD"
dispatcher in Huntington, no longer Jacksonville
DTC.
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