To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM, shg@ns2.txbs.net
From: Francis Ridge <nicap@insightbb.com>
Subject: [SHG] Kyushu/Fukuoka, Japan updated
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:52:13 -0700

The October 15, 1948 Japan sighting already onsite has been updated to include the NARCAP RADCAT version and analysis, the Blue Book microfilms, and the caption/listing from the Catalog of Comprehensive Project Blue Book Unknowns:
http://www.nicap.org/japan1dir.htm

Fran


From: "Martin Shough" <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <shg@ns2.txbs.net>
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu/Fukuoka, Japan updated
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:46:00 +0100

I'm very impressed with this case but now I'm confused about the
location. Hynek had it located 50 miles from Fukuoka well out in
the Korea Strait off the NORTHWEST of Kyushu island. The report
at
http://www.bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=MAXW-PBB4-375
has several different coordinates, none of which is the same and
none of which is anywhere near here. First it is given as
"between" two locations, one of which is EAST of Kyushu off the
SW tip of the island of Shikoku, the other is nearly 200 miles
away off the WEST of Kyushu; and elsewhere (p.1 of the "Essential
information" sheets) it is given as way down off the S tip of
Kyushu near Yaku Shima, which is about 230 and 180 miles
respectively from either of these locations and fully 250 miles
from the one given by Hynek! Can anyone clear this up? All
locations are essentially over sea, but the report speaks of
ground clutter apparently in the area of the sighting. Distance
from the ground radar at Fukuoka and the clutter issue are
relevant to interpreting the case.

Thanks,
Martin


From: Brad Sparks
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu/Fukuoka, Japan updated
To: shg@ns2.txbs.net
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 07:00:01 EDT

Two sites given are apparently named GROUND RADAR sites separated by hundreds of miles with the F-61 supposedly in between.  You can just look up the site names given, in an atlas or gazetteer, and figure out what the TYPOS must be.  Coordinates for F-61 itself had a TYPO and should be 34°00' N (not 30°40'), 130°00' E, about 50 miles NW at azimuth 330° from Fukuoka, Japan. 

Brad


From: "Martin Shough" <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <shg@ns2.txbs.net>
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu/Fukuoka, Japan updated
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:14:30 +0100

Thanks Brad.

Is the latter typo you suggest (latitude of the F-61) proven by a correct figure elsewhere in the report?
I can't find this yet. It certainly adds up with Hynek's position.

As for the other locations the 32,45N-128,40E "Fucue Shima" is findable as Fukue-Jima, or at least it's
a spot about 10 miles off the coast of the south island of Goto-retto, about 20 miles from Fukue-Jima
which is on the other coast. Some rough-and-ready map-reading I guess.

There is no Shigano Shima or similar place near the other (also ocean) location in my maps or gazeteers,
unless it's Saganoseki about 15 miles away. Maybe a better map would show it.

Howsoever, the Hynek position is about 80 miles NNW of the nearest point on a line drawn "between"
these locations, so they are useless as any sort of map reference. They are named as ground radar
sites as you say and it must mean that both these radars tracked the F-61. I previously thought the
ground radar had been single site at Fukuoka.

Martin


From: Brad Sparks
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu/Fukuoka, Japan updated
To: shg@ns2.txbs.net
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:28:27 EDT

In a message dated 5/25/2005 5:10:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk writes:

Brad:
I  would say there are serious sloppy typos on both ground radars' coordinates so you should NOT be looking at their erroneous locations (in the ocean!) but just looking up the NAMES.  When you have correct lat-long you'll see how to correct the erroneous lat-longs  The F-61 location is given in the pilot/radar nav reports of Hemphill and Halter and the lat-long is given just once (with the typo).  Even when typo is corrected it is obviously just very rounded figures to the nearest 10 mins or even nearest whole degree. 

From: "Martin Shough" <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <shg@ns2.txbs.net>
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu/Fukuoka, Japan updated
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:06:09 +0100

Yes but I've tried looking up the names. As I said there is nowhere near the location in my maps or gazeteers that could be Shigano Shima. It isn't a typo in this case. I've found references on the net circa Korean War but still no location. I've written to an ex radar operator of the 610th ACW there in 1950 hoping he can advise and also maybe help out re the ground radar specs and any pick-up idiosyncracies there might have been if it was the same kit.

From: Brad Sparks
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu/Fukuoka, Japan updated
To: shg@ns2.txbs.net

Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 05:31:34 EDT

B:  What does McDonald say?  Usually he tried to identify site locations, at least in his notes. 

From: "Martin Shough" <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <shg@ns2.txbs.net>
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu/Fukuoka, Japan updated
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:53:40 +0100

<>Dunno, I don't have his take on this case except for a brief summary in the 1968 House Symposium. Where should I look?

From: "Martin Shough" <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <shg@ns2.txbs.net>
Subject: [SHG] Kyushu case 52/53
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:49:10 +0100

Hi All
I wrote to this guy about positions and specs of radar sites
around Kyushu, this was re the 1948 F-61 case. Well I learned
that Shikano Shima radar is a very long way from the map
coordinates given and is on a little island off the W coast near
Fukuoka, not off the E coast as indicated! And he gave this story
into the bargain. Anyone recognise a report post Oct 1952 - 1953
that matches this?
Martin

"Hello Martin
...Shikano Shima (Shigano Shima) is an island off the coast of
Japan, reached by a half mile causeway that leads out to it,
after you pass through the little Town of Saitozaki. After
crossing the causeway, at the point of access, there is a little
fishing village followed by a climb up the mountain road to the
Radar Site Det 3. I was a scope dope and had no technical
training nor experience. It seems to me that it was an A/N CPX 10
or 12 Radar Unit and an A/N CPS?? Height Finder. Wish I could be
of more help....One more thought to help you geographically....
We looked right across the Strait of Korea from the west coast of
Kyushu and we were located near Itazuke AFB and the major City of
Fukuoka.

"Now Hear This"... I was working a plot on my scope one night in
Fall of '52 or '53. All of a sudden My PLOT jumps about an each
on each sweep which means it is super sonic. I gasp and
immediately call it to the attention of all the duty personnel. A
Controller looks at it and decides that it's the British "Comet"
coming out of Iwakuni. I dismiss this by saying the Comet could
not possibly have that airspeed even if it was falling to the
ground under full power.

Others agree with me but, as we are all looking at it....the
darned thing starts vectoring toward us....as if it picked up our
radar signal. It's altitude was around 40K initially as I recall.
But as it came toward us it dropped down to around 5K. Then, as
it was almost upon us, it stopped and I ran out of the hut to
look at it.

And there it was almost directly in front of me. It radiated a
horizontal sort of "spectrum" glowing light that became brighter
(on and off) as if on a frquency of some sort. 10 or 12 other
Officers and Enlisted all came out to see it with me. So it was
no illusion. We all saw it together. It remained for about 4 or 5
minutes and then suddenly departed slowly at first but at
progressively greater speed until it disappeared in a modified
orbit to the North. We followed it on the scope for a short
period and then it was just "gone". There was, of course, no
communication with the intercept and no ID determined. Thus no
record. But I have never forgotten it and no one can ever
convince me that it was some anomalous propagation or similar
rationale. For my money, it was a UFO that had tremendous speed,
the ability to change course, on a dime, in any direction, and it
was visible just as described. A pulsating disk that undulated
red, orange, yellow & blue.

I still talk about it to this day when the UFO subject is raised
and I believe people when they tell similar sighting
stories....exactly, or close, to mine. Stated another way, we
can't all be seeing the same thing all over the world, for all
these years, and then deny its existence eh? Does this make your
day????
Captain Tom Sheehan USNR-R Retired
(....I want you to know that the Feb '52 sighting in your finding
[he means Haneda I think] was not my sighting. I got to Japan in
October of '52. So, my Group's sighting was a different event.)"

From: Brad Sparks
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu case 52/53
To: shg@ns2.txbs.net

B:  This really should not have required this much effort to figure out though at least we have a new UFO radar-visual out of it (snipped).

The AF docs with horribly garbled lat-long coordinates had said the Site 1 radar site at Shigano-shima was at:

33-40' N, 132-00' E

Nearby Fukuoka's coordinates however are easily found on the Internet as at:

33-36' N, 130-25' E

Obviously the latitude is about right, and it's the longitude that's way off.  Notice the digit "2."  Internet searching finds descriptions of Shigano-shima (Shikano-shima or shimaj) as at the end of a peninsula roughly 10 miles to the NW or WNW of Fukuoka, so obviously the radar site's coordinates must have been approximately:

33-40' N, 130-20 ' E

and there was a typo displacing the "2" to read wrongly as "132-00 E." 

One can find a nice little map of what later became the USAF 610th ACW Squadron (and also an NSA Army subsidiary 14th USASA Field Station for communications intercepts at Saitozaki nearby):

http://groups.msn.com/610thACWSqRadarSitesSouthernJapan/hqs610thacwsq.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=310


From: "Martin Shough" <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <shg@ns2.txbs.net>
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu case 52/53
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:47:27 +0100

<>
B:  This really should not have required this much effort to figure out though at least we have a new UFO radar-visual out of it (snipped).
M: "Much effort"? I wrote to a guy who was on the spot and asked him. He told me. Easy. What's to be critical of?

The AF docs with horribly garbled lat-long coordinates had said the Site 1 radar site at Shigano-shima was at:

33-40' N, 132-00' E

Nearby Fukuoka's coordinates however are easily found on the Internet as at:

33-36' N, 130-25' E
 
M: Fukuoka's coordinates were never in doubt. The location of Shikano Shima was. You didn't tell me so I found out. Job done.
 
Obviously the latitude is about right, and it's the longitude that's way off <snip>
 
M: Obviously. This inconsistency is what I pointed out originally when trying to understand where the action was. Now I know what the right ground radar locations are. What I still don't know is why an F-61 at 50 miles 330 degrees from Fukuoka, in the middle of the Korea Strait (25-30 miles away from the nearest island), is described as only intermittently detectable because it was going in and out of "ground clutter". As I also pointed out the F-61 location is described as being "between" the radars, which are both among the off-shore W coast islands. You can interpret "between" as meaning tens of miles NW of both radars if you want to keep the "50 miles at 330 degs" intact, but IMO something here is probably wrong and the reference to "ground clutter" is suspicious. If the answer is obvious maybe you can tell me now and save time?

From: Brad Sparks
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu case 52/53
To: shg@ns2.txbs.net
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:05:06 EDT

B:  Apparently the F-61 was at low altitude and near the range limits of the ground radars.  Apparently the lat-long for the F-61 which was moving around at perhaps 200 mph for quite a long time was very roughly 34-00 N, 130-00 E but the digits got screwed up. 

From: "Martin Shough" <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <shg@ns2.txbs.net>
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu case 52/53
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:22 +0100

The entire incident lasted 10 minutes. From the position given, 50 miles at 330 degs from Fukuoka, if the F-61 flew straight west at 200 mph it would reach Tsushima within 10 mins. But the plane did not fly in a straight line and was not tracked into ground echo only once at the start or end of the event. The report describes the F-61 repeatedly going in and out of ground clutter as it turned in pursuit of the UFO, so that it was only ever detected intermittently during the incident, which means that the ambit of the F-61's ground track was localised in the area of an island or islands, repeatedly cutting the same coastline or going between different land areas. So maybe the position given is taken from a "screwed up" map reference and is completely meaningless. Does it matter? Yes it does because now we can't infer anything at all about the range from the radars. It could have happened over Tsushima islands, in which case the suggestion I originally made (that the smooth UFO with no lift/control surfaces or engine pods etc was a poor radar target compared to the F-61 and that the location at low altitude and 50 miles range might have been on the edge of the radar horizon, explaining why the UFO wasn't detected) would even be improved. But If the position given is this grossly unreliable, the action could have happened anywhere within a few tens of miles of it. It could have happened among the off-shore islands off the W coast of Kyushu, and this would be consistent with the statement in the report that the F-61 was "between" the two radar sites. So now we can't get any leverage to rebut the argument that the UFO should have been detected: If it was this close then there is no radar horizon issue and we need to think again about why it wasn't detected.

From: Brad Sparks
Subject: Re: [SHG] Kyushu case 52/53
To: shg@ns2.txbs.net
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:04:36 EDT

The 50 miles at 330 degs from Fukuoka is FLIGHT CREW data whereas the Lat-Longs were screwed up by BASE personnel teletyping reports, so I think the 50/330 is accurate and indicates the F-61 was flying close to the radar horizon some 40-50 miles from the Fukuoka/Shikano-shima radar